Wednesday, July 11, 2007

Moms Battle "Hooligans" in Carroll Park

Carroll Park, Easter Sunday

Here's an interesting story from Carroll Park between Smith and Court Streets that is making the rounds in the form of an email from a local mom about "an increasingly unruly element" making the park "unsafe for families" even during the day. It's a very long post, and if you don't have attention span for it, here's the thumbnail: This all has to do with teenagers snapping wet t-shirts near some moms and kids. The teens didn't enjoy being told to stop. Many recriminations ensued. Threats were uttered by the kids to the adults. The police were called--and to us this is the most interesting part--didn't respond to what could have become a lousy incident in anything resembling a timely fashion. The kids kept up the harassment. They threw things at the adults. And, when the cops finally showed they are said to have been disinterested if not dismissive.

Meantime, the mom in question snapped a cell phone pic of one of the teens, but it didn't make the rounds with the email. Here's the Carroll Gardens mom's account in full:
I wanted to relate to you something that occurred at Carroll Park yesterday afternoon, around 6:40 p.m. I am doing so to make a few points: an increasingly unruly element has made Carroll Park unsafe for families even during many daylight hours; there is little the police can or will do about it, perhaps because of manpower shortages or the volume of crime in the precinct; it is up to those who use the park to try to bring both some focus and some better order there by reporting incidents through the 911 system when they happen, by being more proactive when trouble is brewing and by dealing with that trouble more as a community. I know it is very difficult to handle unruly teenagers while also protecting your young children. But an ad-hoc group of several parents working together could likely keep the peace.

I don't have much time to write this so this is only a rough sketch of what happened. Suffice it to say, this is not the first time something like this has occurred at Carroll Park, but it is the most egregious example of hooliganism I've seen so far. And in my mind it is another example of the danger of not fixing "broken windows" when they present themselves.

Three teenage boys were slapping each other with wet shirts near a woman I know and her 3.5 year old son. She asked them to be careful as they were getting very close to both her son and mine. This emboldened them and they moved even closer, nearly hitting one of the children with one of their shirts as they slapped
them in our direction. When I interceded they responded that they were going to beat me down and break my nose.

I told them they needed to back off and be more respectful of others in the park. We moved away, entering the small-children area by the swings. After a minute or two, the three teenagers pursued us and started snapping their wet shirts over the fence, spraying our children with the water and threatening me. This went on for awhile. Finally I took one of their shirts, threw it in the street and called the police. I was assured they were on their way, and to wait for them to arrive.

They, of course, were not. We waited as the teenagers continued a hit and run tactic with their shirts and their threats. I left my child with my friend and her son, and went toward them as they snapped their shirts at my face, taking a quick snap with my camera phone.

A park worker showed up to take the garbage out as the teenagers regrouped and I asked what could be done. He said that he could tell the teenagers to leave the park but that was about it. He walked over to the group and told them to get out of the park. I thought this was good, although I'd have preferred for the police to run them through the station. I waited for the police to arrive.

The teenagers re-appeared after the park worker moved the garbage and attacked again. This time they were also angry and suspicious about the photo I took. They appeared to be thinking of trying to steal my phone and destroy what they saw as "the evidence." I waited for the police.

The teenagers disappeared behind the building for a moment. Then, commando style, they appeared again, slinging small rocks and what appeared to be hard candy or large gum-balls of some sort. Several nearly hit my son and one struck me in the eye.

With no police there and none likely to arrive, we finally decided to make a break for it. As we attempted to leave, they pelted us with water balloons. By this point, probably 40 minutes had elapsed from when I called the first incident into 911. I called the police one last time (the third time by now).

We were going to walk through this group of teenagers to get out of the park, hopefully without our children being hurt. The teenagers had again disappeared behind the park building. Maybe this time they would use larger rocks? Maybe this time, they would hit my young son. I was no longer concerned about the moral or legal ramifications of breaking all of their fingers and toes.

I hung up with 911 and we started walking out of the park. Another parent in the park noticed two police officers standing toward the middle of the park, toward Carroll Street. We reversed course and headed toward them. I motioned for them to walk toward me. They didn't budge, offended that I actually wanted them to, well, walk, and motioned for me to walk over to them.

I yelled to them that it had been over half an hour since I'd called and that it wouldn't kill them to meet me half-way. I attempted to explain the situation and urged them to go toward the building where the teenagers might still be. They didn't seem too interested, perhaps because they didn't understand that the teenagers might still be in the park. After a good minute or two, they began to slowly meander over to the park building. I said that the teenagers would just run away if they saw the police coming, but the police didn't care much about this. And I don't fault them for this really. Why should they care? They know that nothing can be done with a juvenile in such a situation. Even if they grabbed one of them and took them into the station, the teenagers would just be held there until their parents arrived. And who wants to do the paperwork?

The upshot of this is that the police in our precinct obviously have more pressing concerns than to deal with relatively minor incidents like what happened at Carroll Park yesterday. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be made aware of them, or that such activity should go unchecked. If these incidents are not nipped in the bud -- the threats and intimidation of parents (most often women with young children), the physical altercations, the drug dealing and pot smoking by a very non-mellow outfit camped by the sand courts -- then things can, and likely will, escalate into something more serious.

As James Wilson and George Kelling wrote in their seminal work on community policing, "one broken window becomes many."

"The citizen who fears the ill-smelling drunk, the rowdy teenager, or the importuning beggar is not merely expressing his distaste for unseemly behavior; he is also giving voice to a bit of folk wisdom that happens to be a correct generalization -- namely, that serious street crime flourishes in areas in which disorderly behavior goes unchecked."
Marauding groups of t-shirt snapping teens menacing moms and their kids in Carroll Park and threating to break noses and cops that take 40 minutes to show up. Fun.

Labels:

55 Comments:

Blogger Miserly Bastard said...

This lady is such a loser, typical Brooklyn: over-educated, liberal, cowards.

What she ought to have done, instead of "calling the cops" or trotting out some tired sociology references, is ask them to stop nicely, and if they didn't, leave the park.

The next time, show up with her husband, and have her husband give the same speech. If that doesn't work, the next step is for her husband to confiscate the wet towels or slingshots or whatever. And if things get rowdy, her husband can give the teenage kids a good ass whipping.

Oh wait, she's probably married to a 110 lb acupuncturist, so maybe this isnt an option either.

11:39 AM  
Blogger Serra said...

Miserly Bastard, you are a jerk. There is nothing worse than fearing for the safety of your child and even of yourself when you are in a "safe zone" such as a public park - a place where kids can play freely without limitations. This woman wrote a consice explanation of her experience with the hopes that others might actually help. A little courtesy would be nice. Sure, maybe the quotes made her sound a bit pretentious but you don't have to be a lame judgemental jerk about it.
Lady, I hope that someone who can help reads your tale - perhaps send a copy to Bill De Blasio? He seems to eat up these neighborhood woes and is a pretty decent guy. I, dor one do not have kids and do not hang out in the park, but I live in the hood and find your story pretty concerning...

12:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"safe zone" like a public park? ever been in prospect park after dark?

1:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ bastard: She did ask them to stop. Did you even bother to read it?

1:10 PM  
Blogger B Rickman said...

Brilliant, Miserly Bastard. Maybe you were too busy flexing to read the part of her account in which she does, in fact, ask the kids to stop -- about as "nicely" as seems reasonable. And then she did it again. Maybe she should offer to bake them cookies next time.

As for swaggering crap about her husband (assuming she has one) administering ass-whippings, that's another stroke of genius. Have a quick phone conversation with an attorney about what happens to grown men who assault unarmed juveniles. Even if he could make a self-defense case -- likely only if there were weapons involved, or he or his family had already been assaulted -- he's going to face a stack of legal hassles and expenses.

The cops could probably put a stop to this just by (a) showing up quickly, (b) acting like they care (toward the kids if not toward the adults), and (c) being visible around the park a bit more often. In other words, a little reverse harassment that increases the hassle factor for the kids until it's just not as big a kick as it used to be and they go away.

That said, it seems like she's doing the right thing by raising neighborhood awareness and trying to get some unified community support. She's level-headed about the cops' priorities overall, and she's right about having to put up a fight against this kind of petty bullsh*t. It's a public space and it ought to be a civil space. I don't know what kind of chip you have to have on your choulder to call that overeducated, liberal, or cowardly. Seems like plain common sense.

1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you got that right rickman. lawd knows those little demons around there have rich parents to sic lawyers on the husband and make more trouble....as you say assuming she has a husband (also sad how rare in this day and age that would be).

2:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've always wondered if you can just mace these idiots. At the point at which they threaten you, you'd probably be within your legal rights to do so.

2:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If Christian values still had any play in this city events like this would not occur. My suggestion to all parents involved; find out who these teenagers are and report thier activities back to their respective parents. If I was told that my teenage son was involved in any situation similar to the above, he would be extremly disciplined, and forced to applogize to all parties involved. (Military service sound like a good option for this kind of youth) I am aware that in this city it has become unpopular to discipline children, but a spoiled child is a danger to itself and to the community as a whole. God Bless.

3:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't buy a $1.7 million home or $500K 1 BR apt 3 blocks from the projects... you know the Gowanus Projects. They aren't good! Why do you think all this crap is happening in Boerum Hill or Carroll Gardens OR the recent shooting in PLG!? Poverty is a desperate place to be (especially when Mr. Yup and Ms. Hip move in w a bugaboo) so either start a community center and get to KNOW these kids (and get your nose outta your 3 yr olds ass) or move to a section that is not 3 blocks from the projects - DUH!

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like a classic generational/cultural/sexual clash.

My analysis: The mom (unknowingly, of course) provoked the boys' anger when she "asked them to be careful as they were getting very close."

Surely, she wanted the boys to honor what she considered a polite request, but what they heard was, "Don't get too close to me, you dirty little thug. You're not good enough to be near my baby."

Believing that they'd been "disrespected," the boys felt the need to assert their manhood by escalating the situation.

The woman who wrote the letter may be a lovely person, but the best thing she could have done, when the boys got too close for her comfort, would be to either:
a) Make them laugh. Call out something that would get the message across lightly and with humor, perhaps, "Thanks, but you guys don't have to give my baby a bath - I already did that at home!"
b) Simply get up move.

Yes, it isn't right and it isn't fair that she should be inconvenienced, but doing the safest thing is often inconvenient.

Keep in mind that it is never wise to appear to be an autoritarian figure with these kids. In their eyes, authority = enemy.

Sure, the cops could arrest them, their parents could smack them or ground them, teachers could suspend them, or a hypothetical big, angry husband could "give them an ass whipping," but moms in the park with babies can't really do anything to enforce their requests and the boys know it. Push them and they'll push back harder.

My strategy (YMMV): When dealing with rowdy (or potentially rowdy) teens, I make a point of demonstrating respect (whether or not I actually respect the little hoodlums is irrelevant), never overtly censuring or correcting their behavior (especially in front of their peers), keeping a distance and always - whatever I do - trying to do it with humor.

If you can make them smile, you'll defuse the situation and they won't feel as though they've lost face. It's a win-win.

3:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the author of the post is a man. A later post from the same parent mentioned not wanting to get into a physical confrontation b/c they were juveniles. That seemed like a male perspective to me and the name signed was relatively gender ambiguous.

3:21 PM  
Blogger Miserly Bastard said...

I read the original post, in its jaw-dropping entirety, and again, I'll just repeat that this lady's response is so typical of liberal, cowardly, overeducated Brooklynites: ask nicely, ask not so nicely, then plead for the cops to come solve your problem

Two words, lady: self-help. Instead, this idiot decided to call 911 (three times, no less), then when she finally managed to find two cops walking the beat, they were none-too-interested at a bunch of teenagers snapping wet towels at each other. Well surprise, surprise, that NYPD isn't going to deploy the SWAT team to arrest a bunch of kids having some summertime fun.

Even her use of the term "hooligan" shows how incredibly naive and useless this lady is. A true "hooligan" is somebody who will stomp your skull into a pile of mush on a cement curb if you wear the wrong soccer jersey on game day; these kids were--well, kids.

You know what, it's a public park. If teenagers are running around on a hot day roughhousing, then you're going to need to pack up your little precious kiddie into her McLaren Quest, and move to a quieter area of the park. If moving isn't what you want to do because of some grand desire to "defend the public space from hooligans", then exercise a little self help and act like an adult. If that requires laying of hands on wet towels or slingshots--well so be it. And if the kids really do try to "break your nose" or whatever they threatend to do--well, the moment they try to start that, is when the ass whipping begins.

Brooklyn really is filled with a bunch of self-important, weak liberal pansies.

3:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm always baffled by the attitude "New York sucks and we like it that way; if you have a problem with people breaking your windows and threatening your kids, move to the suburbs." No matter what your class or ethnicity is, if you have your shit together, you care about your family being safe and the things you work hard for being respected. It takes someone who doesn't have a job (trust funders or unemployed dropouts) and who can't handle having a family, to talk like miserly bastard.

We all know *miserly bastard* is really some dorky college drop out pissed because he can't get laid so he trolls. He knows nothing about Brooklyn or "ass whipping", 'cause he's from some suburb in Ohio. He doesn't care about women and kids being hassled 'cause he has no women or kids he cares about.

Those of us who grew up in *real* city neighborhoods know that kids like those in the original post are different from the ones we grew up with; they have no parental control, no respect, no clue. They are not harmless and they won't grow out of it.

4:02 PM  
Anonymous pansy ass acupuncurist weighing it at 220 said...

Miserly Bastard, you're not just a jerk, but a jerk-off. A name-calling idiot fucking jerk-off. If I weren't such a liberal coward, I'd come over to your house, ask you to get a fucking life and then I'd beat your slimey conservative ass to a pulp.

4:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I second that emotion miserly bastard! Bitching and moaning about the teenagers, why doesn't she speak to her neighbors INSTEAD of typing in a blog? Where da hell she thinks those teenagers live? IN HER NEIGHBOORHOOD!!! Who are the people in your neighborhood? In your neghborhood, in your neighhhh-bor-hoooooddd!!! Yes Teenagers are the people in your neighboorhood.......

4:08 PM  
Anonymous seb said...

Anon 3:17, what are you suggesting? That every kid who lives in the projects is a menace, like the ones this mom described? I live across the street from the Gowanus projects and my 2 yr old son has befriended several of the jr high students who hang out in Boerum park on warren st. These kids are so sweet & gentle with him and, how could it be!?!?, they live in the projects. Poverty does not give anyone the right to harass another person and does not turn kids into "hooligans" to use the mom's turn of phrase.

4:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The email was actually written by a man, not a woman.

4:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

4:08, she didn't post in in a blog, she sent it to the neighborhood parenting listserv to inform her . . . wait for it . . . neighbors.

4:31 PM  
Anonymous you paid WHAT to live next to a prison?!?! said...

miserly bastard, I have been living here a looong time and I am with you. That park has long been a sore subject, particularly when school lets out. We used to just leave before "the big kids" got there. No shortage of playgrounds in the area.

Serra - move to park slope, where your type of self-righteousness is appreciated.

And to everybody else - the good folks of Boerum Hill make it their business to LOCK the schoolyards, so kids have no other place to hang out. Unbeknownst to them, the people both the Wykoff Houses and the Gowanus Houses don't have summer homes, can't afford camp, and therefore find ways to entertain themselves as city kids have for decades. I know - I was one of them long ago.

4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

check out MIserly Bastard's profile....pathetic loser for sure.


Miserly Bastard

* Gender: Male
* Industry: Law
* Occupation: Attorney
* Location: New York : New York : United States

About Me

Happily married 39-year old attorney and new dad. I play a sick amount of online poker. I like things that go BANG! I hate liberals and vegetarians. My cholesterol is over 240.
Interests

* Money
* poker
* and guns.

Favorite Movies
* Rounders.

Favorite Books

* Inside the Poker Mind
* John Feeney (2+2 Publishing).

4:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh come on, this is clearly another case of a "cultural misunderstanding". You shouldn't judge these 'hooligans' based on your misogynistic/paternalistic/Eurocentric/racist standards. These 'hooligans' are merely expressing their 'vibrant' culture, who are you to judge them?

Now, repeat after me:

Diversity Is Strength!
Diversity Is Strength!
Diversity Is Strength!

And one more thing:

Charles Barron for Mayor 2010!

5:04 PM  
Anonymous you paid WHAT to live next to a prison?!?! said...

Dear Seb...

They do that in prison too. It's called "befriending the enemy" and it's an excellent life skill.

5:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe a neighborhood watch would be useful. If Carroll Garden is like Park Slope, there should be a lot of freelancers working at home who could show up and pressure the kids to leave the Moms alone.

It would be nice to have some forum where neighborhoods could get together and discuss crime and safty issues. Maybe there are some already that I don't know of.

5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Mommie Mafia strikes again!!! Snapping wet towels??? Are you kidding? Just go somewhere else, as in this neighborhood you have a ton of choices. Just wait til your toddler grows up and becomes a teen-ager...I'm sure you will still defend whatever he/she does, as you are part of the Mommie Mafia

5:27 PM  
Anonymous lifer said...

I'm not sure if these are the same guys, but, yesterday ,same time, I was outside Hole in the Wall video with my girlfriend, and a friend walked by, we started to talk and she said she had just been spit on up Court street in the Heights, kids asked her for money, she said no, and got spit on. She went home to clean up, then walked down Court to meet someone, as we were talking, right there, someone came up behind me, and asked for money I say "no" without turning around, "thats him, that's the guy" my friend says...they kept walking, maybe because I am heavily tattooed, but the next people they encountered, they asked for money, called them faggots, and challenged them to a fight, it was a young couple with a stroller , and continued down the block. They were heading towards my girlfriend's block, where her kids were playing in the front yard with their grandparents, so I started walking towards them, with them if you will, half a block away (living here i have been in many a scrap, I am not gonna take on 5 teenagers with chips on their shoulders, but would certainly jump in if someone was in trouble, or my girlfriends kids were threatened).They passed the block and headed further down Court towards, yes Red Hook, i felt like following. they stopped in a Korean grocer, stole grapes, and started to throw them at people, continuing to curse and even walked by the social club across from Hanleys, and said shit to the old Italians sittng there. anyway, along this whole situation, the cops were called three times, to no avail. Now here's where this might get tricky. I dont know if these kids were the same that were in Carroll park, but it was five black kids, a couple had no shirts on, a couple knapsacks, and one had a basketball (I am not being racist by describing them, i have lived in the neighborhoood my whole life, have blacks as friends,my business partner is black, and so on.) Anyway, a huge reason these kids may have been so aggressive in Carroll park is that since late 60's and 70's and up to now, blacks have repeatedly gotten beat up in Carroll park by the Italian kids that claim it as theirs.These kids saw they were safe , and this was probably some sort of recompense for them being chased and maybe even being beat up here before, maybe even reacting to stories their older brothers and parents have told about the reputation of the park .If the italian kids that hung out on the corner of Hanleys were out, we all would end up feeling sorry for these kids when we read in the papers the next day about the beating they would have gotten. This is just unfortunately the way things have evolved here in the neighborhood. These kids were coming from the basketbll courts on Tillary st, and walked down 3 upper middle class neighborhoods towards their homes and passed a park where they are usually not welcome (local papers have reported this situation for years) and felt entitled to scare people they blamed for making them not feel welcome. The cops didnt do shit cause, well, the 78th blows, and they probably figured the kids would be chased off eventually by the Italian kids, or if they reacted they would be blamed for racial profiling. Its just the climate this neighborhood, and the new residents have inherited .I was pissed, and was gonna make sure they left the neighborghood without incident, but I also saw people scared enough to fork over money, people twice their age!, scared!, I mean these kids are at the age where they have nothing to lose, and are subject to more violence that people in these neighborhoods wish to imagine. I hate to think what would have happened if the guys were bbqing outside of Hanleys, it would have looked like something out of a Bronx Tale. Anyway, I am not taking sides, if you are with a child its always better to just walk away. safety is the most important, engaging these kids alot of whom are abused daily is not gonna help. And at last, if I am wrong and these kids are not the same, i guess i am relating just another story of the same kind of thing...oh, and I am not "describing every kid from the projects as a menace" just so we all know that, I have taught in the projects, as did my mother, lord knows there are kids of privelige that are just as violent, maybe even kids that Miserly Bastard was beaten up by when he was growing up in the suburbs...Miserly Bastard is a bitch, has no idea what its like to feel protective of a child, I am sure he would have run right up and "confiscated" these kids clothes and take on 5 teenagers in front of his toddler. Take off your "718 neighborhoodie", homey, your ghetto pass is revoked..

6:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I saw these kids walking down Court st. and they weren't just rowdy teenagers. They were menancing pedestrians, throwing items, surrounding people and then demanding money. They also walked in and out of several stores grabbing items.

I am a NYC public school teacher. I don't easily scare or get intimidated by kids but I knew enough not to bother saying anything to them. Their demeanor made it obvious that they were acting intentionally obnoxious and threatening. Kids may be kids and goof around but the actions that I witnessed were not acceptable regardless of the neighborhood or their age.

I also called the cops. The police should have shown up in a timely manner. I am greatly disappointed in the 76th Precinct.

7:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had a similar problem w/ a group of kids in Prospect Park. I asked for a bit of space for my one year old, but the kids took offense and became hostile.

I was a kid once too and not always perfect but there is a balance to things. If these kids get hostile when people confront them, the problem isnt likely to go away. It will only get worse as they get older.

8:08 PM  
Blogger Miserly Bastard said...

The subsequent anecdotes only reinforce that the original poster is a complete idiot.

If she's there with her kid, and there are truly some menacing turds around, the smart money packs it in and goes to a different playground--opening your trap with your kid there is just plain stupid. The time to "take a stand" is not when you've got a toddler at your side, and your enemies are a bunch of high school sociopaths. In general, your best option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrance, and de-escalation.

On the other hand, if for whatever reason, you feel you must really take the fight to these turds, then bring it to them in a big way, and finish the fight decisively. Wait until self defense is justifiable, the odds are on your side, and then put them in the hospital. I've walked away from many fights in NYC, and been in one--which resulted in the other guy going to the hospital with a broken knee.

This lady just sounds like a dope who wandered too far from Park Slope, and belongs back with the McLaren/Bugaboo crowd. When in Rome, baby, do as Romans, and trying to reason with project punks is just stupid and naive. It aint about broken windows, it aint about civic duty: you live in the ghetto, learn to deal with ghetto problems

8:28 PM  
Anonymous who walk in brooklyn said...

oy! props to 3:24 & the teacher, tho' i think he should know better than to just CALL the cops-- if it's so important to you, walk to the 7-6 & make your report. i mean it sincerely, since i know you do have more a bit more street savvy than a lot of other people.

i said this elsewhere but briefly, this was RIDICULOUS-- calling 911?! how many businesses are nearby she could retreat to? sorry we can't enforce Total Social Control for those of ya'll with waaaaay more $$$ than sense but that's just the way it goes.

& again, if this was REALLY a dangerous situation, either perception-- & NOTE we have NOT heard the other sides of the story, & frankly, the histrionics here, while no doubt sincere, hardly make for a credible witness-- THEN SAFETY FIRST--

you fucking leave, to Court St, Smith St or to the 7-6 on Union. if you "need" a person of authority instantly, get your ass down to the subway station.

***

big props to the l-o-n-g post at 6:15; remember, ten years ago there were NO chain stores here & it was terrific... nobodly lamented the lack of boutiqes, or "cute" brunch spots. there was this little problem with wise guys talking about "the Ni**ers" (-er, not -a) out loud & yes, sometimes beating them, as you remember.

QUESTION: did ANY of the West Indian or Latino nannies in the park get this type of harassment? they could have but it's an interesting question nonetheless.

VERDICT: learn to handle yourself "mom"; if they really WERE dangerous, yr cell phone photo is worthless; if they were just rowdy & didn't like some ofay taunting 'em back... all this whinging is only going to make things WORSE, for years to come.

welcome to BROOKLYN, & hey-- props to 3:19 also. there surely are some kids just looking for trouble but respect begets respect. some days your # is up.

LARGER PROBLEM, as noted: rich assholes closing other playgrounds, & "moms" who worry a lot more about rats (thriving in the park BECAUSE of their dropped food, etc) than the lives of the diverse #s of humans around them.

wwib

8:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All i know is i Love Carroll Gardens and if i were there i would do something to help.

11:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People should stop blaming the original poster. The people to be blamed here are the harrassing boys. It's akin to blaming a rape victim by saying she asked for it based on what she was wearing. Those boys should have stopped their behavior when they were asked to stop. The parties at fault here are the boys, their parents and any other role models who are failing these boys.

And anyone who argues that good ole' brooklyn is being ruined by yuppiesa nd hipsters ... well, too f'n bad. The city is evolving and so should the people in the city. Gentrification is not an excuse to act like assholes to the people moving into the neighborhood. You think you got here first ann you got more rights?! Well, wake up ignorant fools! The English were here before you, the Dutch before them, a whole mess of Indians before them, etc.

12:18 AM  
Anonymous I paid $2M for a townhouse and all I got was a housing project said...

Oh please, all of you. The police are well aware that there are gangs of unruly teenagers in the area. So much so that there is an incredibly visible police presence on Smith Street both before and after school lets out. There are 2 housing projects and 4 very awful and large public schools within blocks of Carroll Park.

There are also 3 playgrounds with sprinklers in the area. If you don't like the crowd - move somewhere else. Like a gated community.

Yes I have kids. But i was also raised in projects in manhattan. In John Lindsay's NY. I consider myself to be somewhat street
smart. The best thing to do is ignore, or get up and move.

To Singapore.

7:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know we're all too busy trading in stereotypes to care but this wimpy yuppie mother who can't handle the mean streets of Brooklyn is actually a male war journalist.

8:36 AM  
Anonymous You paid WHAT?! said...

Anon 8:36:

Yeah right. So sure.

10:36 AM  
Anonymous Greg said...

I think everyone here is missing the most obvious solution: stop having children.

1:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I walk past Carroll Park all the time. I'll keep an eye out for "Hooligans" as nothing would give me more pleasure than beating, er, explaining some life lessons to those disrespectful punks.

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You paid what,

Really. He's a man. He posted again to clarify and invited the board to google him in order to see what experience he had potentially dangerous situations. I'm not saying it makes his actions better or worse than if he was a cowardly woman, but I figure it's worth noting.

4:14 PM  
Anonymous You Paid What?!?! said...

Anon, I'm on that board, and I didn't see a follow up post. Or maybe the dude neglected to cross-post it to the 100s of boards he did the first time. I think it came to me through both the CGNA and Boring Hill boards.

Anyhow, I have a really hard time believing it was from a man. Just as I have a really hard time believing 3 calls to 911 wouldn't yield a single officer, especially if there are kids involved.

Sorry, but I've been a mom in this nabe for too long and been in too many playgrounds to believe this isn't from some desperate housewife who's husband talked her out of moving to Montclair and she's scared out of her wits.

Or maybe it's because I grew up here in 60s NY, which makes Carroll Park look like Snow White's Castle.

4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You paid what,

He posted the follow up on the Bococa Parents yahoo group. I didn't realize he posted multiple places. I get your skepticism, but I don't think it's a woman with a false identity, complete with fake website.

5:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Miserable Bastard-
"If she's there with her kid, and there are truly some menacing turds around, the smart money packs it in and goes to a different playground--opening your trap with your kid there is just plain stupid. The time to "take a stand" is not when you've got a toddler at your side, and your enemies are a bunch of high school sociopaths. In general, your best option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrance, and de-escalation."

I bet you have a solution for Iraq too you ignorant, selfish, conservative, dirt-bag, gun-f*@#$3r. I'm sure your an excellent laewyer as you can speak out both sides of you keister- oh, i'm sorry one side is your head.

6:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

just walk down the 200 block of sackett street if you wanna see true hooliganism - and get high off the second-hand reefer smoke....

5:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe Miserly Bastard wasn't as tactful as some of you would have liked, but I think I know exactly what he's saying. It's the pussification of America. If this guy wasn't going to be stern with these kids and make them stop before they got out of hand, he should have left. Instead, he got pissed when 911 didn't produce cops instantaneously. If I called 911 three times for anything less than being in the process of being killed, the cops would tear me a new one.

6:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

most of you danced around what is really happening in that area as well as whereever white people go to live. You guys really think it is ok to move into an area and change the way people live. I am in no way condoning the behavior of kids-most need their asses kicked, but don't think the policwe are going to help you. You invested in buying up propert in the area give something back. grab one of the kids and take him/her to their parents and let them know what happened. It is done in most neighborhoods-oh maybe it would be tough to do that since you represent the tide of gentrification-the displacement of blacks and latinos who braved these areas for years only to be priced out of better living by white people who smell a bargain and expext the world to lick their ass. Your history of arrogance, sense of entitlemnent and disrespect for the people and culture of the areas you move in will bite you on the ass. Be prepared for your child to be a victim on a daily basis-until little Brad joins the bloods and Suzy does Raekwon and his boys under the stairs. Learn how to fit in not destroy.

3:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

send this women and her kid to iraq today!!!!!!!!! they were just playing you uptight white snob!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7:08 AM  
Anonymous You Paid What?!?! said...

If the man really felt endangered - which I doubt, as he is a war journalist - he should have left. He said he didn't leave b/c the cops told him to stay put. But he could have gone across the street to the bagle store, Yacht Club, or Eckard and waited for the police in relative safety. Instead he chose to incite an altercation, then bitch and moan about it.

11:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is the reason cops are not around to catch the real criminals doing really bad things. Because you damn yuppies call the cops for the most minor of problems and tie down the actual few officers that are working. DO NOT CALL THE POLICE FOR NONSENSE...it prevents them from helping those of us who really are in need.

3:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That park has always had a reputation, just like Fort Greene's park and Prospect Park, and just because you paid way too much money for your townhouse doesn't mean that these incidents are going to be eliminated by your money or your other listserve neighbors. In fact I fear that NYC is looking at possible riots soon unless the city (as a whole) begins to look at the growing income disparity and gentrification without inclusion of their neighbors.

There are no "safe zones" in a large city. If you want that you move to the 'burbs or small-town USA. We are currently in a relatively safe time for NYC, which is unusual (even according to the police). This is as good as it will get.

11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a parent and was in th epark that day. If the original poster feels a need for polic ethen fine, call them. However, His account is one sided. I was several feet away, and once the police arrived, they stood in the park glancing around for the caller. As the caller approached them he was not so kind in his choice of words either. You want respect, THEN show respect. Simply put.

The cops walked in the direction where the caller stated the kids were last seen. What would you like them to do, sprint towards that section of the park, after telling the officers that the kids might have already departed the park?

They did, in fact, check the park and that is all they needed to do. I have family on the job and if you go screaming on a cop who is coming to help you right offf the bat, don't expect him to be enthusiastic. As long as he was professional and helped you out, do you need this cop to coddle you as well?

1:43 PM  
Blogger I am not Star Jones said...

I think the kids were brats and after asking them to stop politely with humor or something to engage them in a way so they would stop and if my request was declined, I would have left the park for the sake of my kids.

(I don't have children, though.)

Again..rudeness sucks no matter your race, class or gender. There's no excuse for unprovoked hostility at a reasonable request.

It's still hard for a lot of people to believe but we are all human beings and should be trying to live together.

7:51 PM  
Anonymous Gary Galligan, retired NYPD said...

If "Punks" are threatening Your kids---grab them by their necks & bring them too their mothers & fathers---& tell the parents that if they continue too make "Terroristic Threats" which is a felony---too Your kids--they will be arrested--even if You have too make a "Citizens Arrest" too do so. If the parents give Youa hard time--tell them too step outside & settle it like "adults'.
"Mano" a "Mano"---but We all know that 'punks" always need a "knife" or a "Gun"---or a "Gang" behind them--& run like rabbits when ist one on one.
Gary Galligan, retired NYPD, Brigantine Beach, NJ

12:32 AM  
Anonymous J. Youngblood said...

When people like petrified parent realize there's a reason that cities have historically been dangerous places and move to the suburbs like their parents did in the '70s, we can reclaim new york and the rest of america's urban areas for the working class, the artists and the dreamers, even if most of those dreams are the nightmares of inadequate services and high crime.

8:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also find it fascinating that the West Indian and Jamaican nannies hold there own so fantastically in Carrol Park. The teen would never have bothered them. I teach in Brooklyn and these teens are light weights; obnoxious, racially confused and come from homes with money; the original Carrol Garden residents.No mom or child should be threatened ever. I say take over their haunt. Sit where they sit, smile get to know who they are. These kids can be turned into an asset of this park and look out for your kids! Instead of battling the "new home owners" verses " old home residents"issue , embrace where you live. This is a diverse area which holds many different values. This is America. Integrate, accomodate, assimilate. The kids have hearts too. A bit confused, but human beings, non the less. A final note: violence should never be tolerated...from any one.

10:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think everyone should stop this whole "white monsters moving into poor minority neighborhoods" line of thought, and using it as a crutch to defend shitty teens, drug dealers, etc. You know what? Coney Island was white once, and quite safe. Then they built some projects there, and the area became filthy and dangerous. True story. Anyone complaining about that, though? My point: neighborhoods change their dynamic, populations are replaced by other populations - accept it.

It does not pay to complain about race, ethnicity... It's about class, and about neighborhood values. Do the parents care enough to discipline their kids? Is the neighborhood family-friendly to begin with? Do people take care of where they live? That is why some parts of Queens are very mixed and very safe. And why projects (and trailer parks in "white" parts of the country) will always remain unpleasant. So stop the PC bullshit.

1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ladies and Gentlemen, Anon 1.15 is absolutely right. But moreso, it's about the sytem we live in. How many parents are at home now vs when we were growing up? It's not that the parents don't care about their children or teaching them things like respect of others, it's about where is the time for this? They have to work, don't you? Sometimes, there HAS to be 2 parents working at once. OMG, 2 Parents??? That's a crazy idea in this world, but it's true. Parents can't even discipline their child without THE FUCKING CHILD threatening to call ACS. No, a "timeout" is given. Are we seriouos about this?? OK, now I'm going off on something else....but isn't it all connected? WAKE UP, SHEEP!

12:16 PM  
Blogger RAC said...

I was born and raised in Carroll Gardens/Red hook. As a matter of fact Carroll Park was my home away from home growing up. My grandfather along with most of the men in my family were all long shoreman. That alone should give you an idea of my background. Carroll Gardens is not the Carroll Gardens from 20 or more years ago. These days the old timers in the area are looked upon as if we were the outsiders,strangers or even trash. Any old timer you speak to will tell you the same. The new comers that now live here have a habit of speaking / looking down to the people that grew up here. There is a certain attitude that new breed carries around with them. It's the attitude that says " I paid 1.5 million for my house and I can do /treat you anyway I want". I can only imagine the look on this women's face when she ask those kids to be careful. I can be sure that the look was one of disgust. I'm sure that's what set those kids off. All she had to do was move away from them. They're only kids playing around in the park like every other kid there. The whole thing got out of hand. I blame this women for this along with her friend. In reference to the cops, I think we should stop wasting their time with these silly little things. I'm sure the 76th has more important calls to attend to.

3:24 PM  

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