Thursday, July 12, 2007

Carroll Park Moms vs. "Hooliganism" Update & Another "Disturbing Incident"

[Photo courtesy bondidwhat/flickr]

So, our post yesterday about the "hooliganism" in Carroll Park reported by a neighborhood mom attracted a large number of comments. (33 as of early this morning, which is a significantly large reaction for GL.) And, we also came across another email of a "disturbing incident" in the park and another ho-hum NYPD reaction. First, here's the email:
I also had a very disturbing incident in Carroll Park about a month ago and felt that the police were not responsive. I was in the playground area with my 4-year-old twins in the afternoon when a group of about 6 rough 11 or 12-year olds arrived. They were being very boisterous and at one point a girl, who was maybe 15 feet away from me said to one of her 'friends' "I'm going to cut you!" I looked over, and sure enough she was waving a small knife. I got my kids out of the park in a hurry and called the precinct. They seemed non-plussed, so I said "Don't you want a description?" I provided a detailed description of the girl and told them that I could see that the group of troublemakers was still there. The officer said they would send someone. I did not wait around because I was concerned about the safety of my kids, but I was stunned at the way they responded to my phone call.
And, now, for some comments reacting to the original post:

1) "This lady is such a loser, typical Brooklyn: over-educated, liberal, cowards. What she ought to have done, instead of "calling the cops" or trotting out some tired sociology references, is ask them to stop nicely, and if they didn't, leave the park." [Miserly Bastard]

2) "Miserly Bastard, you are a jerk. There is nothing worse than fearing for the safety of your child and even of yourself when you are in a "safe zone" such as a public park - a place where kids can play freely without limitations." [Serra]

3) "The cops could probably put a stop to this just by (a) showing up quickly, (b) acting like they care (toward the kids if not toward the adults), and (c) being visible around the park a bit more often. In other words, a little reverse harassment that increases the hassle factor for the kids until it's just not as big a kick as it used to be and they go away." [B. Rickman]

4) "Sounds like a classic generational/cultural/sexual clash. My analysis: The mom (unknowingly, of course) provoked the boys' anger when she 'asked them to be careful as they were getting very close.' Surely, she wanted the boys to honor what she considered a polite request, but what they heard was, 'Don't get too close to me, you dirty little thug. You're not good enough to be near my baby.' Believing that they'd been 'disrespected,' the boys felt the need to assert their manhood by escalating the situation." [Anonymous]

5) "I saw these kids walking down Court st. and they weren't just rowdy teenagers. They were menancing pedestrians, throwing items, surrounding people and then demanding money. They also walked in and out of several stores grabbing items. I am a NYC public school teacher. I don't easily scare or get intimidated by kids but I knew enough not to bother saying anything to them. Their demeanor made it obvious that they were acting intentionally obnoxious and threatening. Kids may be kids and goof around but the actions that I witnessed were not acceptable regardless of the neighborhood or their age." [Anonymous]

6) "People should stop blaming the original poster. The people to be blamed here are the harrassing boys. It's akin to blaming a rape victim by saying she asked for it based on what she was wearing. Those boys should have stopped their behavior when they were asked to stop. The parties at fault here are the boys, their parents and any other role models who are failing these boys." [Anonymous]

Related Post:
Moms Battle "Hooligans" in Carroll Park



Anonymous Anonymous said...

0) Four year old twins: natural or the result of fertility treatment? (people HATE it when we ask that; too bad, it's germane.)

1) what are "rough" 11-12 year-old girls like? what physical characteristics did they display that suggested this BEFORE the knife was allegedly pulled?

2) Whether or not this story is "true" (kids will often FAKE having a weapon), the mom here acted wisely.

3) again, i ask: has a single black or latino nannie (or, infrequent as they are there, black or latino moms) in the park suffered the same harassment? they very well could have-- if so, that is important to know.

4) re: the potential attitudes of the 7-6 (whose disinterest is ONLY alleged so far)--

* how much $$$ do they make?
* where did they grow up?

there's A LOT to understand, & even more misunderstanding going on here for sure, just as there surely ARE wild kids. but, hey, HINT: there ** always ** were... & always will be.

this is not to condone physical threat but a clearer recognition of the total environment here is essential.


10:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 76 precinct has community meetings. If parents with young kids who use the park think this is a problem...probably a better use of their time then protesting the proposed '360 Smith St' building.
And WWIB, why in the world would it be important to know whether a single black or latino nannie or mother has suffered this harassment? You are sounding weirder every day.

10:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, the nannies sometimes get harrassed. My kids are older now, but I had a nanny from Trinidad and we have discussed this very issue.

The nannies often hang out in VERY large groups themselves, and they can be equally intimidating. The nannies are keenly aware of the "bigger kids", and thus there is sort of a playground "circuit". They use different playgrounds at different times during the day. Both groups end up avoiding each other and peacefully co-existing.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that the "new" moms/people moving into the area feel entitled to ALL of it. They are not, as my 5 year old would say, "good sharers". Too much money and too much of having things come easily make for spoiled parents. I'm not advocating the teenagers behavior one bit, but the police ARE aware of it, and can only act as a deterrent. Making a lot of noise in a park or hanging with a gaggle of friends is not against the law.

Ironically, I know some mothers who won't use parks that are frequented by nannies - such as LICH.

10:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

on another incident, I heard a story that was circling around mothers that a man with a small dog was caught by a mom trying to walk a kid out of Carroll park a couple weeks ago, anyone hear that one?, any details?...

11:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous, you are so right. That was an ugly, ugly story which made EVERY PARENT in Carroll Gardens look like an idiot.

Short version: someone posted man with little dog tried to kidnap young girl from carroll park,.

moms went nuts, posting pics of sex offenders and neighbors to every parent and group in the area. Warning warning warning!! No MAN should be allowed in the park without a child!!

Bottom line: said man was friend of the mom and girl. Mom went to the loo, while daughter, in the company of a trusted friend, who happened to be male, strolled out of park.

Here's your grain of salt. Take it.

11:30 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thats horrible,I paid..., as a man who has a girlfriend with daughters, I am always looked at sideways when i take them to the LICH park by myself...Its okay to be safe and wary, but...

11:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why are people so eager to turn this into an ethnic issue (or for those who insist on 18th century fantasies, a "racial" issue)? I'm not black, but I grew up around black people...and respect for older people and little kids has always seemed, to me, to be a stronger cultural value among blacks than whites. The original post didn't make *any* reference to ethnicity, but you all insist on making it about that. These kids are, simply, *assholes*. Disrespectful and mean. Why champion them and villianize these parents, who, from what I read, did what I, or any other parent would do. Why is taking care of your kids and responding to disrespect from haters something that only yuppies indulge in? You all are confusing your "politics" for reality.

12:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Once again (and maybe it doesn't really matter) but it was a Carroll Park DAD who made the original hooligan post.

4:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the 76 precinct is way overburdened - they handle all of red hook, plus the hips new neighbs - and these kinds of things happen all the time.

my block is a frequent black hole of this kind of activity - sackett bet clinton and henry... either there needs to be more police presence everywhere, not just by the smith street bars at night, or someone in nyc gov needs to get on the 76, pronto.

4:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no way a man made that post. What a pussy.

4:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I actually thought that Red Hook was getting its own precinct to solve these problems.

5:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the 76 precinct is way overburdened - they handle all of red hook, plus the hips new neighbs - and these kinds of things happen all the time"

--actually, a police officer from the 7-6 told me that red hook has less crime than carroll gardens...don't be so quick to assume otherwise.

6:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I paid $2M - great post.
Kids are allowed to make noise and be boisterous. I am the father of toddlers and will move my kids away from older (predominantly white where I live - sorry I can't make a racist comment about non-white boisterous kids - these are white boisterous kids) kids in the playground that look like they may hit my kids by accident. It the sensible thing to do if you in apublic place.

You are also right about the different times though.

12:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This native New Yorker (and former teenage hooligan) thinks this is simply a "turf" issue. Non-natives bring their children to the playground expecting that teenagers will give them and their children the run of the place, and not play in their own way (i.e.,flicking wet t-shirts--are you going to melt, Carroll Park Mom?) Of even more concern is that these parents demonstrate their fear of the teens, whose race is going unmentioned, to their kids.

7:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the 76 is way overburdoned???
It is one of lower crime precincts in the city (and always has been) and not spread out over large area like many others. It is not a hotbed of crime. But these 'quality of life' issues are more difficult to deal with.

10:01 AM  
Blogger The Mothership said...

Teenagers of any color are to be avoided when they travel in groups--that's WORLDWIDE!! But I'm sure the entitled mommy had no idea how to deal with them, and as someone posted, you can not shame them in front of their friends. They will NOT back down. These moms have to learn they're not gonna get EVERYTHING their way. The day they do will be a sad day for all businesses, playgrounds, and cafes everywhere.

11:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is really nothing new. There's just a new forum to discuss it.

Look, money's been pouring into BH, CG and CH for how many years now? People are still getting mugged, car windows are still getting smashed, and yes, moms are still protective of their little kids playing in the park. Hopefully the precinct will listen and maybe a few more cops will make it "that" much better. Does it really call for another drawn out analysis of neighborhood demographics and socio babble?


1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Again I'll try to leave my post which didn;t make it yesterday. These Hooligians are YOUR NEIGHBOORS and their Children!!!! That Bitch you can't stand from down the block? you need to talk to her cause it's one of her children. WTF?? 12, 14, 16 year olds DON:t own property or have any money. Look at your neighboors and open a dialog with them DuMb*ss

4:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to be nonplussed is to be bewildered, not unimpressed...

12:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes th e76 is over-burdoned. I know many cops and the blame should go to Bloomberg and the city. I'm told by some that some precincts put out 2-3 patrol cars a night. And if one car is tied down then that is four cops (2 cars) watching the neigborhood. Is that those cops' faults? NO! They are human. The real issue is why are there only so few cops covering this precinct on a given night. Trust me, rowdy kids in the park and another priority job happening simultaneous, which do you think one of these 2 cars will respond to first? Cry all you want, but that won't change unless there are more cops.

12:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

that doesnt give the cops the right to say "wait there we'll be right over" and then never show up, thats being a liar on te taxpayers dime...

10:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The cops did not lie on the taxpayers dime. It's the taxpayers ( or mis-allocation of taxes by the city) not providing enough officers. This precinct is dangerously undermanned and, add on the countless petty 911 calls, and response time will be a consistent problem.

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If it's uncomfortable, leave. Although one has the right to be anywhere at anytime in this country, one isn't always welcome.

Obviously, the parent wasn't equiped to speak to these "rough" children in an effective manner...probably as a result of being left out and sheltered, much like his/her kids will be. It's a vicious cycle.

11:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

76 pct covers a small area yet they also cover 2 huge projects + everywhere else in pct. They only have about 2-3 cars out and about 5 walking foot posts(if no one is sick/vacation). So 10 or less people can't really be all over the place at same time. Crime/problems happen everywhere, stop blaming cops etc.

1:32 PM  

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